zone5
08-09-2010, 10:35
Hi everyone, I’ve been a long time off the forum, and do have a bit of a story.
While much of it has been due to incredibly busy personal circumstances, the boat has been out of action for about 4 months due to (your gunna love this Doug) failure of the gearbox on my 50 hp Etec after about 47 hours. It’s a long story so I’ll try to be concise.
In March we were cruising along on Lake Lyell at about 4500 rpm when we noticed an unusual metallic banging from the engine. There was enough time for a look between the missus and me, and then down the back at the engine when all drive stopped and the motor ran free (still running fine). No forward, no reverse, nix, nada, nothing. Fortunately only 400m from the ramp so easy paddle to retrieve. Sat morning so call dealer, they initially thought prop hub, but I was already having doubts about that, boat was out of water, prop secure but graunching when turned by hand. Agreed to drop it off for warranty claim, was pretty obvious gearbox failure.
Now, step back in time when I bought the Solas Saturn prop. At the time I removed the OEM Viper prop I remember thinking “isn’t it odd the way the way BRP put a curve in the spline at the fwd end of the shaft – must be part of the prop location process” and the great shame in all of this was that for someone who studied aero engineering I didn’t take the thought processes a step further and think “it can’t be machined like that, you idiot…” doh Anyway, Saturn prop went on for most of a season, then put the Viper back on, not because I like it better (I don’t) it’s just that it has less blade area for same diameter and pitch and spins up faster, gets the engine in the mid-range quicker to pull me up on the wakeboard, and amazingly (or not) I still don’t get more curious about that funny shaped spline. pointlaugh
Well, back to the present, the shop pulls it apart, gearbox is trashed, pinion broken in half, shaft has some run out, a real mess but they have some odd questions about the props and how I use the boat. (I’m sure the cleverer amongst you can see where this is leading). Obviously (when they mention it) the curve in the fwd end of the spline is in fact a twist in the shaft, and it looks like an impact. I’m initially pretty indignant because I’d never even considered that and, hey, if I’d had one, no problems, I’d bring it in and get it fixed, but every hour of running on that boat I have either been driving it, in it or behind it, and there had, to my knowledge, never been any kind of impact. (I’ve stalled it once putting it in gear at idle when the prop was actually still in some mud). Also, as they all readily agree, there is not even the tiniest mark on either of the propellers, the motor or the boat, and no sign of the prop bush spinning. (I have spent hours looking for any mark, without success…)
Anyway, warranty claim with photos is submitted, BRP knock it back claiming impact. I have a fair bit of to and fro with them because I’m certain I haven’t had one, though I’m still wracking my brains trying to figure what has happened and have to concede it sure does look like one. Mind you the whole thing is, by now, doing my head in. I ran the sums on the shaft (engineering is always handy) and by my calculations, assuming it’s a typical high strength steel, that shaft can take a steady input at typical rpm of almost 200hp before experiencing plastic deformation – a bit more than it should have experienced. (Of course, if there was an impact, it can be overloaded and twist – but what about the rubber prop bush?) I showed it to two engineers and three fitters, 4 out of 5 said they thought the shaft hadn’t been heat treated properly. After that I investigated having full metallurgical testing, it would be about $500+ for Vickers, Rockwell and a couple of others and still not be definitive unless BRP supplied the relevant MPa values for the steel, which given our dispute they just weren’t going to do.
During this time I did have an interesting conversation with the head of BRP warranty claims, I’ll try to reproduce it here as accurately as possible (posted without further comment):
Me: “What concerns me about rejection of my claim is the implication that I am lying to you, having concealed the prop that had an impact and must have been damaged.”
BRP: “No, we’re not suggesting you are lying at all. We’re simply saying that it is possible to have an impact that you are not aware of, does not damage the boat, motor or propeller, but can still cause gearbox failure at some point in the future.”
That was the big issue for me, any suggestion I was lodging a false claim. Anyway, at about the point of setting a hearing date in the NSW Consumer Trader Tribunal to fight them, the stress was getting too much. My dealer pointed out that all of the evidence pointed to impact, and I was willing to concede that point, even though I kept thinking an impact capable of doing this must have been noticeable. Anyway, I accepted something must have happened that I was unaware of and an insurance claim was lodged, factual in that I had experienced gearbox failure, and everything, including the physical evidence and dealer and manufacturer assessments indicated that it was caused by an impact.
The twisted shaft was the necessary key factor for the assessor and the claim was honoured by Club Marine. The repairs were carried out by John and Drew Geo at Marine Scene Campbelltown. It was a complete gearbox rebuild, after all damaged parts were installed everything seemed fine however Drew noticed that when spinning the prop there was, if the surroundings were quiet, a very slight noise at one point in the rotation. Drew’s words to me were “if it was my boat would I be totally happy?”, and his answer was no, so they tore it all down and started again, this time also replacing the (seemingly undamaged) bearing carriers. All good this time and the prop now spins smooth and free for a long time when pushed with a finger. They tank tested the motor extensively and made sure it was top notch before handing it back to me.
We tested the boat and the motor now seems even smoother than when new, and pulls another 100 rpm @ WOT compared to when I first got it. 2thumbsup I must stress that this problem was with the gearbox, the actual Etec engine has just kept running sweetly thru the whole drama. Now, that gearbox predates Etecs by many years, I believe it has its origins in Johnson 60 and 70 hp engines from many years ago, with a good reputation.
So what caused the whole problem? Well, on the balance of probabilities it would seem we did hit something, a point I find embarrassing in that I didn’t notice, tho I am slightly mollified by the fact there was absolutely no damage to any part of the boat or motor (prop even checked under magnification!) to notice when on the trailer. What rpm? What speed? Cannot say... The fact that the motor seems even smoother now after the rebuild does occasionally make me wonder about the possibility of some problem ex-factory, but I have no real evidence for that. I’ve thought long and hard about how I feel re BRP and Etec’s (I considered at one point a re-engine with the new 50 EFI Honda) but given that the motor itself never gave us trouble, and that the gearbox has been carefully rebuilt by hand, I still feel confident in the brand, important when you put your family in the boat. I don’t want to move from the Etec, from a user point of view they are great.
Many, many thanks to John and Drew at Marine Scene, when caught in the middle of a difficult situation they gave me maximum support and good advice, and when we finally got on with it they excelled themselves with the care and workmanship they put into my job. 2thumbsup Thanks also to John Box (insurance assessor) and Club Marine, they were thorough and particular (which, as a paying customer I appreciate) and when satisfied that all was correct they did what I pay my insurance for and fixed my problem. They stayed in contact and kept me updated, even checking when it was all over that I was happy. Can’t ask for more than that… Nonetheless I hope not to have to use their services again! Also thanks to Glenn (BigFella) for some good initial advice on processes for dealing with the manufacturer – sorry mate for not getting back to you sooner, but when you get 8 days at home in 8 weeks some things just fall of the list!
Hopefully things are now looking up. “Waterhorse” is back in action (wx permitting), Burrendong Dam has gone from 11% to 80% in a couple of months (that’s twice as much water as Sydney Harbour) and still rising and we have an onsite van up there so looking forward to plenty of use this summer.
Have put this story up just to add to the body of information this site provides, and to acknowledge those that have helped me. Also as a warning to those who have had underwater impacts on any brand of motor, if you think it just hurts the prop beware - it won’t necessarily cause other problems straight away, so get it checked. This was what kept me awake at night, the thought that I might have lost drive (with the family on board) at a more critical moment than when it did occur; tho as I said above, given the work put into the motor, I now think it is as reliable as I felt it was before the incident. (I’m still wondering if stainless props are a good idea, an alloy would probably bend more easily and save the gearbox, as well as indicate what has happened).
Hope this is useful and of interest. I do have a picture of the shaft, but not on this computer (I’m away from home at the moment) so stand by for that.
Sorry for the long post. chrs jc
While much of it has been due to incredibly busy personal circumstances, the boat has been out of action for about 4 months due to (your gunna love this Doug) failure of the gearbox on my 50 hp Etec after about 47 hours. It’s a long story so I’ll try to be concise.
In March we were cruising along on Lake Lyell at about 4500 rpm when we noticed an unusual metallic banging from the engine. There was enough time for a look between the missus and me, and then down the back at the engine when all drive stopped and the motor ran free (still running fine). No forward, no reverse, nix, nada, nothing. Fortunately only 400m from the ramp so easy paddle to retrieve. Sat morning so call dealer, they initially thought prop hub, but I was already having doubts about that, boat was out of water, prop secure but graunching when turned by hand. Agreed to drop it off for warranty claim, was pretty obvious gearbox failure.
Now, step back in time when I bought the Solas Saturn prop. At the time I removed the OEM Viper prop I remember thinking “isn’t it odd the way the way BRP put a curve in the spline at the fwd end of the shaft – must be part of the prop location process” and the great shame in all of this was that for someone who studied aero engineering I didn’t take the thought processes a step further and think “it can’t be machined like that, you idiot…” doh Anyway, Saturn prop went on for most of a season, then put the Viper back on, not because I like it better (I don’t) it’s just that it has less blade area for same diameter and pitch and spins up faster, gets the engine in the mid-range quicker to pull me up on the wakeboard, and amazingly (or not) I still don’t get more curious about that funny shaped spline. pointlaugh
Well, back to the present, the shop pulls it apart, gearbox is trashed, pinion broken in half, shaft has some run out, a real mess but they have some odd questions about the props and how I use the boat. (I’m sure the cleverer amongst you can see where this is leading). Obviously (when they mention it) the curve in the fwd end of the spline is in fact a twist in the shaft, and it looks like an impact. I’m initially pretty indignant because I’d never even considered that and, hey, if I’d had one, no problems, I’d bring it in and get it fixed, but every hour of running on that boat I have either been driving it, in it or behind it, and there had, to my knowledge, never been any kind of impact. (I’ve stalled it once putting it in gear at idle when the prop was actually still in some mud). Also, as they all readily agree, there is not even the tiniest mark on either of the propellers, the motor or the boat, and no sign of the prop bush spinning. (I have spent hours looking for any mark, without success…)
Anyway, warranty claim with photos is submitted, BRP knock it back claiming impact. I have a fair bit of to and fro with them because I’m certain I haven’t had one, though I’m still wracking my brains trying to figure what has happened and have to concede it sure does look like one. Mind you the whole thing is, by now, doing my head in. I ran the sums on the shaft (engineering is always handy) and by my calculations, assuming it’s a typical high strength steel, that shaft can take a steady input at typical rpm of almost 200hp before experiencing plastic deformation – a bit more than it should have experienced. (Of course, if there was an impact, it can be overloaded and twist – but what about the rubber prop bush?) I showed it to two engineers and three fitters, 4 out of 5 said they thought the shaft hadn’t been heat treated properly. After that I investigated having full metallurgical testing, it would be about $500+ for Vickers, Rockwell and a couple of others and still not be definitive unless BRP supplied the relevant MPa values for the steel, which given our dispute they just weren’t going to do.
During this time I did have an interesting conversation with the head of BRP warranty claims, I’ll try to reproduce it here as accurately as possible (posted without further comment):
Me: “What concerns me about rejection of my claim is the implication that I am lying to you, having concealed the prop that had an impact and must have been damaged.”
BRP: “No, we’re not suggesting you are lying at all. We’re simply saying that it is possible to have an impact that you are not aware of, does not damage the boat, motor or propeller, but can still cause gearbox failure at some point in the future.”
That was the big issue for me, any suggestion I was lodging a false claim. Anyway, at about the point of setting a hearing date in the NSW Consumer Trader Tribunal to fight them, the stress was getting too much. My dealer pointed out that all of the evidence pointed to impact, and I was willing to concede that point, even though I kept thinking an impact capable of doing this must have been noticeable. Anyway, I accepted something must have happened that I was unaware of and an insurance claim was lodged, factual in that I had experienced gearbox failure, and everything, including the physical evidence and dealer and manufacturer assessments indicated that it was caused by an impact.
The twisted shaft was the necessary key factor for the assessor and the claim was honoured by Club Marine. The repairs were carried out by John and Drew Geo at Marine Scene Campbelltown. It was a complete gearbox rebuild, after all damaged parts were installed everything seemed fine however Drew noticed that when spinning the prop there was, if the surroundings were quiet, a very slight noise at one point in the rotation. Drew’s words to me were “if it was my boat would I be totally happy?”, and his answer was no, so they tore it all down and started again, this time also replacing the (seemingly undamaged) bearing carriers. All good this time and the prop now spins smooth and free for a long time when pushed with a finger. They tank tested the motor extensively and made sure it was top notch before handing it back to me.
We tested the boat and the motor now seems even smoother than when new, and pulls another 100 rpm @ WOT compared to when I first got it. 2thumbsup I must stress that this problem was with the gearbox, the actual Etec engine has just kept running sweetly thru the whole drama. Now, that gearbox predates Etecs by many years, I believe it has its origins in Johnson 60 and 70 hp engines from many years ago, with a good reputation.
So what caused the whole problem? Well, on the balance of probabilities it would seem we did hit something, a point I find embarrassing in that I didn’t notice, tho I am slightly mollified by the fact there was absolutely no damage to any part of the boat or motor (prop even checked under magnification!) to notice when on the trailer. What rpm? What speed? Cannot say... The fact that the motor seems even smoother now after the rebuild does occasionally make me wonder about the possibility of some problem ex-factory, but I have no real evidence for that. I’ve thought long and hard about how I feel re BRP and Etec’s (I considered at one point a re-engine with the new 50 EFI Honda) but given that the motor itself never gave us trouble, and that the gearbox has been carefully rebuilt by hand, I still feel confident in the brand, important when you put your family in the boat. I don’t want to move from the Etec, from a user point of view they are great.
Many, many thanks to John and Drew at Marine Scene, when caught in the middle of a difficult situation they gave me maximum support and good advice, and when we finally got on with it they excelled themselves with the care and workmanship they put into my job. 2thumbsup Thanks also to John Box (insurance assessor) and Club Marine, they were thorough and particular (which, as a paying customer I appreciate) and when satisfied that all was correct they did what I pay my insurance for and fixed my problem. They stayed in contact and kept me updated, even checking when it was all over that I was happy. Can’t ask for more than that… Nonetheless I hope not to have to use their services again! Also thanks to Glenn (BigFella) for some good initial advice on processes for dealing with the manufacturer – sorry mate for not getting back to you sooner, but when you get 8 days at home in 8 weeks some things just fall of the list!
Hopefully things are now looking up. “Waterhorse” is back in action (wx permitting), Burrendong Dam has gone from 11% to 80% in a couple of months (that’s twice as much water as Sydney Harbour) and still rising and we have an onsite van up there so looking forward to plenty of use this summer.
Have put this story up just to add to the body of information this site provides, and to acknowledge those that have helped me. Also as a warning to those who have had underwater impacts on any brand of motor, if you think it just hurts the prop beware - it won’t necessarily cause other problems straight away, so get it checked. This was what kept me awake at night, the thought that I might have lost drive (with the family on board) at a more critical moment than when it did occur; tho as I said above, given the work put into the motor, I now think it is as reliable as I felt it was before the incident. (I’m still wondering if stainless props are a good idea, an alloy would probably bend more easily and save the gearbox, as well as indicate what has happened).
Hope this is useful and of interest. I do have a picture of the shaft, but not on this computer (I’m away from home at the moment) so stand by for that.
Sorry for the long post. chrs jc